I’ve done a lot of interviews the past 15 years-plus over the phone, Zoom, Skype and email. Recently I had my first interview over WhatsApp. I was talking with legendary U.K.-based punk/folk singer-songwriter Billy Bragg to preview his show Sunday, October 6 at Barrymore Theatre in Madison, Wisconsin for the Capital Times (you can read the preview here). He’s currently on his most extensive U.S. tour in quite a while.
After having trouble reaching him through his U.K. phone while he was on tour in the U.S., he gave him a call through WhatsApp, which I happen to have as I had used it with my mother when she was overseas on trips. After the interview, Bragg said, “What’s funny, Josh, the 20th century technology wouldn’t let us talk to each other, but this cockamamie WhatsApp shit allows us to do this. It’s pretty weird, isn’t it?” Right on, Billy.
That’s one of the things that have definitely changed since he started touring over 40 years ago. What hasn’t changed is his stance in supporting and protesting various political and social issues in the form of songwriting and activism.
Below is an extended cut of my interview with Bragg:
With singing about political and social issues, I imagine it was exciting to be able to take it a step further with your activism.
Yeah, it’s exciting to do activism and I’m in Vancouver today, I’ve got a soundcheck at four o’clock. At three o’clock I’m playing at a climate demonstration and at 11 o’clock I’m going down to a trans right demonstration after I speak to you to play a song there as well. And in Madison where the left-wing politics has always been strong, I’ve been out in the streets playing with demonstrations of picket lines in the earlier in this century, and I always associate Madison with that more radical edge. So, it’s good to be coming back.
You’re currently on your most comprehensive North American tour in decade. Why did you feel it was time to go on a big tour like this?
Well, depending on the way things go down in November, there might not be a United States of America to tour next year. There’s the possibility of civil strife seems to be high on everybody’s the horizon. So, I’m trying to make sure I see everybody before the you know what hits the fan.
What are some causes you’re working with and supporting lately that you’re really passionate about?
I find myself supporting labor unions. Last time I was over here, I ended up playing on a picket line outside the Starbucks in Buffalo. Tomorrow I’m headed down to Seattle where Boeing workers have just gone on strike there. I’m hoping when we get to meet with people from the United Auto Workers, I’m wearing an International Union of Operating Engineers t-shirt at the moment. So that kind of linking up with organized labor, I’ve found is more rewarding than linking with political parties, mainstream political parties, they change their spots, but labor unions always stand up for the same kind of things such as the workers’ rights, the community, better standard of living, safety in the workplace, these kinds of things. I have songs in my set like there is power in a Union that reflect that.
The climate issue I think is really, really important. I think we all have to take that on board, particularly in a country like the United States of America and Canada where they suffered from the wildfires here in Canada last year. Before that they had heat. We’ve had incredible flooding in Europe. We have to address these issues and also supporting for our trans and non-binary siblings in my country and in your country. They’re being targeted by reactionaries, and I think used as a means of whipping up bigotry and hatred. They need a little bit solidarity just as our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters were in the late 20th century. If we’d have said then when the AIDS epidemic was decimating the gay community and they were being stigmatized by that, if we’d have said to them, “listen, in two decades time, gay marriage will be legal.” They’d have never believed. We’ve come so far and now we have to support our trans siblings in the same way and say “look, we will overcome this.” It’s tough now, but we’ll get to a situation where you are accepted by the mainstream because that’s the way history moves. The arc of history is long, but it bends towards inclusivity. And as time passes, more people find themselves included in the family of human rights and that’s all it should be.
Do you think the US can learn plenty from the UK and vice versa?
We always can because all facing the same problems. I mean, I should remind your readers that Brexit went down before Trump was elected, and that’s the same kind of ejaculation of anger and belligerence. Brexit has the sensibility that put Trump into the White House, and those people haven’t gone away in my country just because the Labor party is in power, they’re everywhere. They’re in Europe, in the far right in Germany, in France, even here in Canada, there’s a far-right grouping in the elections. They’re currently neck and neck here in British Columbia. These people are everywhere. Trump is just a manifestation of a part of the human condition, and we have to come together and face these people down. Every generation I think has to find a way to deal with these kinds of people. In my time, it was rocking against racism was the vehicle we used for dealing with those people.
Now there are many different ways of doing that, and obviously your election this year is one way to articulate the true spirit of the American people. And I think the interesting thing about this election that’s coming is that although it will be about very important issues, obviously I think the cost of living will be very important on the election campaign. I think immigration as well will be important. I think the election will be almost a referendum for the American people asking the question, is anybody in America above the law? Because if Trump wins the election, I think the majority of the American people would’ve voted for someone who has no respect for any form of accountability whatsoever. And if that happens then and that becomes the new paradigm, then I think things are going to be pretty sticky for the next few years in the United States of America.
With focus in on politics and social issues. How do you think a songwriter’s role has evolved most in recent years regarding writing songs on politics and social issues?
Well, I think in the last decades of the 20th century, music was the only medium available to young people to articulate their views about everything, love, politics, football, the weather, everything had to be articulated through music because we didn’t have any access to the mainstream media. Now, of course, there are many ways for young people to express their views. I mean, you could even make a film with your bloody phone, for instance. But I think music despite it no longer has that central role in youth culture. It does still have a role to play in bringing people together and making them feel that they’re not alone. And that’s a really important thing. And I’m not talking just about political music here, Josh. I’m talking about any kind of music that feeling you get when you’re in a crowd and the personal stage is singing your favorite song that they wrote, and you are singing it at the top of your voice and everybody else is singing.
You feel part of something bigger. You feel that whatever emotions you’ve invested in this song, they’re accepted by everybody. And the thing about that is, and this is really important, you can’t get that feeling online. You can get anger, you can get joy, but you can’t get that feeling of community that you get that communion almost from a gig. And if your music also has political content as well, then you can send people away believing that they can make a change. And that’s partly what I try to do. And I do a gig not to change the world, but to make people believe the world can be changed.
How do you think your songwriting has grown most in recent years?
I think I’ve started writing less ideological songs. I deal in more broader terms. I find myself talking about more about empathy. I find myself talking about opposition to cynicism. I find myself talking about accountability. And these are words I didn’t use in the eighties and the nineties because I was writing in a much more ideological period then. But we live in a post ideological world, and I have to find other ways to articulate what I’m saying. It’s nice to have a challenge.
About 40 years ago you went on your first US tour when you opened for Echo & the Bunnymen. What most stands out to you about that tour and your exposure to American life?
Josh, nothing can ever be more vivid than your first experience of the United States of America from the moment you come in over the Brooklyn Bridge and see Manhattan to the moment when you take off your shoes and socks and paddle into the Pacific Ocean in Los Angeles, everything in that tour was amazing. And if it had been the only time I ever came to the United States America, I would’ve been satisfied with that because we went everywhere with the Bunnymen. And we saw the most amazing things. And when I say things, I mean the Rockies, I mean the Salt Flats in Utah. Texas, the Great Lakes, all that stuff for the first time, the times I’ve come since have been great and I’ve seen great things, but nothing has ever been so vivid as that first trip. And about 15 years ago, I came to America with a band and the pedaled steel guitar player had never been to America before. And he was absolutely obsessed with America. He’d always dreamed about America. He kind of dressed like a cowboy almost. And coming with him on the bus, it was almost like experiencing it again, precariously.
He was so amazed by it. He said to me once we stopped at a set of traffic lights once in somewhere in Arizona, I can’t remember what it was. We were walking back from a record shop and were by this huge set of traffic lights. And a guy pulled up to the lights on a Harley Davidson, but he was only wearing sunglasses and shorts and knew he was on Harley Davidson and Chris Hillman said to me, “this is so bloody American, isn’t it?” I said to him, Chris, “yeah, it is mate, so bloody American.” And this guy roared off on his Harley with us just shaking our heads like two people from Mars. It was pretty epic. So yeah, it’s always a trip coming over. There are always things to do. For the first time this year, for the very first time I went to Las Vegas, to play Punk Rock Bowling. That was a trip as well. So yeah, it’s always interesting. We don’t fly, we drive everywhere. So, you do actually see America that way.
You’re currently contributing to a book that explores shows from throughout your career mainly through stories told by fans. Why do you think that’s important?
Because I think it’s a communal experience. It’s not just about me. It’s about all of us and how we feel about what we do. And I mean, the sort of thing that I’m encouraging people to contribute, they write that on Facebook anyway. I say, “hi folks, I’m in Vancouver.” Someone says, “I saw you in Vancouver in 1985 with my friend.” People write to me about that stuff all the time. So, putting it together in the book and using my archive to illustrate the things that people are talking about, I just think it’s something that after 40 years, it’s something worth doing to reflect on all that, how far we’ve been and what we’ve achieved. And the fact that we’re all still here, still doing it, that’s worth celebrating.
Yeah, for sure. Do you have any new music in the works or plans to release?
Not at the moment. I’m kind of sometimes between records I write a book, and I think next year I might just get my book head on. I do that to break things up a bit. If you just continually make records and tour, after doing that for 20 years, I kind of ran out of steam a little bit. So, I now mix it up a bit and it’s good for me. It’s good for the work because when I come back to it, I’m really excited for it. I’m really engaged with it rather than just see we are going round again.
Do you find yourself writing songs in batches or every once in a while?
Every once in a while. Sometimes I get just suddenly get the urge. I heard that song “North of Richmond” last year by Oliver Anthony. And it really bugged the shit out of me, I’ll be honest with you. So, I wrote a response song called “Rich Men Earning North of a Million,” which I wrote on a Sunday afternoon, recorded straight onto my desktop and put onto YouTube that day. And it’s out there and I play it live. If I’ve got to make an album, obviously I spend a lot more time focused on that kind of stuff. But you never know when it’s going to drop off into your hands. You might as well always be ready to harvest what’s coming.
Joshua is co-founder of Scummy Water Tower. He’s freelanced for a variety of newspapers, magazines, and websites, including: Rolling Stone, The Boston Globe, Chicago Sun-Times, Guitar World, MTV News, Grammy.com, Chicago Magazine, Milwaukee Magazine, MKE Lifestyle, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, A.V. Club, SPIN, Alternative Press, Under the Radar, Paste, PopMatters, American Songwriter, and Relix. You can email him at josh@scummywatertower.com.
